John: Gary, it is awesome to have you on the podcast. I got to tell you that you’re one of the people that I’ve wanted to have on as a guest since we started this. Gosh, I don’t know, 30, 40 episodes ago. And so I’m finally glad that you’re able to join us. And I can’t wait to get your thoughts on this topic today. But before we do that, I want to give you an opportunity to kind of introduce yourself to our listening audience. Tell us a little bit about what you do, where you work, and how long you’ve been working with partners.

Gary: Yeah, thank you, John. It’s really great to see you again. I’ve so much enjoyed and had so much value from our business association over the years. So it’s my pleasure to be here today and do this. So thank you for the intro. I’m Gary. I’m based in the UK. I live close to Heathrow, to the west of London. And the reality is I am a veteran of enterprise software in Europe. Primarily most of my career was at Oracle, 15 years, doing just many different roles, a real broad spectrum of new business, system integration business, technology, hardware, back into alliances, channel. It was great to have the opportunity to really try many things and then fundamentally decide on where my skills were best suited. So I had 15 years at Oracle, I had five years at Infor, which is obviously where we met John, and for the last five years I’ve been working at IFS in the UK running their channel business and that’s becoming an ever-increasing substantial contribution to the number. It’s up to about 40%, which is a dramatic growth.

John: Yeah.

Gary: And our partners, we all say, but in our case, it’s true that Cleo’s in the name of partners. They are just critical to what we do.

John: Yeah. It’s one of the things I’ve always loved about you, Gary. Every time I’ve ever talked to you, how much you appreciate the partners themselves and the efforts that they bring to the table. It’s just, it’s one of the things that I think makes you so good at what you do is that you really care about your partners and their business. And so just absolutely love that about you. All right. Well, listen, we wanted to talk today about pipeline reviews, doing pipeline reviews with our partners. And I know you listened to the episode that Tony and I just did. Let’s just start there. Tell me, you know, when you listen to that episode and you think about what you do, kind of what resonated for you, what challenged you, what made you go, that’s not how it really works. You know, just give me your reaction to that episode.

Gary: Yeah, well, I think for me the key immediate point that came out is in reality, what starts off as a pipeline review quickly becomes a short-term deal analysis of what’s happening this quarter now. And it becomes very tactical and very much into right now, how do we achieve the number, the objective that we have? And so all the time, what I’m trying to do is to elevate that sort of pitch, if you like, and say, listen, what we need to look at is what we’re seeking to achieve. And the business is this, and this is where we’re at. So I’m looking for a bit more strategy regarding what is the trend in that pipeline? What’s the health of it? What cadence do we need to put around that to turn those plans and that pipeline into opportunities? But ultimately, I’m trying to ultimately get a bigger picture and get them expanding and thinking bigger than they were because it’s so easy to just dive straight into that deal, straight into that deal. So that historically has been my way of looking at it. And all the time really just applying some sense to bring reality to what the pipeline is.

John: Yeah.

Gary: So I’m very keen, John, to share something I’ve done many times and I’ve seen it work so well. Whenever I take over a new partner, I always do the same thing. I say, listen, why don’t we do something really crazy? It’s radical. It’s different. Why don’t we actually have? Council this meeting, push it back for one week and over the next week you have the opportunity without justifying it or giving me any explanation to clean up your pipeline. If it’s dead, kill it. Don’t, don’t, don’t, let’s just have an amnesty for one week. But what should happen then is when we come back in a week’s time, we’re talking about a true reflection of our business, the pipeline. But let’s just, you know, there’s so much legacy in there and you’ve pushed it and pushed it and pushed it back quarter after quarter, year after year in some cases. Let’s have a clear out. Let’s come back, regroup with a clean place where we know we’re in a good place and we’ll build on a safe foundation.

John: I love it.

Gary: They love it. They love it. Everybody’s anxious and concerned about the trend in their pipeline coming down. And you know what? And I understand it because we’re all all the metrics are in place to measure that. And we’re looking for the up arrow all the time. So, you know, I think you can probably just do it once, just on that one occasion. Let’s just have a, let’s just be totally pragmatic and clear up. And start again. But what we will do is…

John: Yeah, exactly. That’s exactly how I see it. Correct.

Gary: Correct. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, once you’ve given somebody that opportunity, John, it’s totally acceptable. It’s acceptable, isn’t it, in our behavior to hold people responsible and accountable for what is their own work. But, you know, we’re not chasing shadows because that’s a crazy people. So we’re gonna really just bring it straight back strip it all back. This is where we’re really at. We just build on that and accelerate on that pipeline development.

John: It’s a really interesting approach, Gary, because it’s not only frees the partner of whatever baggage their previous channel management, partner management stuff had, right? But it kind of gives them, like what an immediate trust building. We talk a lot in this podcast about building trust, right? And we’ve talked about a lot of different ways to do it. And that’s what just…

Gary: You’re it.

John: Absolutely. What jumps out at me is that you start the relationship by essentially extending trust and saying, here’s what we’re going to do. I’m going to give you this get out of free jail card to kind of reset pipeline. Let’s start new and fresh and make sure that everything we’ve got is real. Because it makes me wonder, I wonder how often as partner managers, channel managers, how much time we spend, you know, kind of pretending between us and the partner because we don’t do what you just said.

Gary: Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. And you’re absolutely right. I mean, you know, I guess, I guess we could give it a label of hygiene, you know, the hygiene of the pipeline or, you know, there’s the measures about, you know, the weighting of the pipeline. But, you know, for me, let’s check the pulse. Let’s just check the pulse. And seriously, let’s focus on what’s going to make a difference. And, you know, I’ve had many times, John…

John: Yeah.

Gary: You know, a sales director, a partner say, we’ve walked into a meeting room, the week after we’ve had that initial call, you’re saying, you’re going to be well unimpressed with me in a moment. You’re going to be really, I’m going to really wipe the smile off your face. And, you know, it doesn’t hurt because it’s absolutely fine. Yeah, we may as well get ugly early. We are where we are. And together, we just build it and move it forward.

John: Yeah.

John: Well, and I wonder too, you know, for me, I love that though. Well, and I wonder for me anyway, asking partners to do that. I’m trying to put myself into that position. And I’m thinking I would also be more impressed the further, like the more pipeline they got rid of, right? Like that they really took me at my word. Like that would almost bring a smile to my face if they came in with…

Gary: I’m probably unshockable on that point John. I’m pretty unshockable, I mean, you know, it’s terrible.

Gary: You bet.

John: 40 or 50 or even 60% less because it means they really took it seriously that, hey, we’re going to start with a clean sheet.

Gary: Yeah, and you know, John, it’s ironic because I was asked by a French colleague quite well, it’s a couple of months ago now to get involved with a French partner that I actually think you know them to be open with you from our Infor time together. And this French partner, it had all come undone. It was all a bit of a mess. It got clouded and it was just, it was just wasn’t great. And so what transpired is how crazy is this is I use the expression. In some cases, the pipeline has dropped almost overnight by 40%. Well, in the case of the French partner, it went up by about 30 or 40% because they said they were so anxious about my predecessor and his style. They low-balled everything. So actually…

John: They had low-balled. Yeah.

Gary: It was brilliant. It worked out. And I said, look, we just don’t need to. It’s whatever it is. The number is the number. You know, managing that and, you know, managing that, managing up regarding that, just played totally straight. Let’s just be totally transparent. This is the number. There might be 5% either side of it in reality. But so, you know, it’s a funny old game, but I find it as a good place to start. And, you know, we…

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Gary: It works, it’s historically worked well.

John: Here’s, you know, Gary, and I’ve said this to you probably a hundred times in the time that we’ve known each other. I love having conversations with you because every time you and I talk, you’ve taken something that we have talked about in the past and improved it a hundredfold. And I absolutely love it because I get to take it then and go teach it to other people. So thank you. That, cause like, I love this idea.

Gary: Very welcome, John. Very welcome. If I had, as we say in the UK, if I had a pound, a dollar, for every time I’ve been in a position over the last five years where I thought, right, okay, I’ll do what we’re gonna do here. And I’ve literally pulled off the shelf something that I’ve learned from that, the investment that Infor made in your company. It’s been a godsend.

John: I love that. I love that. All right, well, let’s look, this one little nugget that you’ve given us is worth gold. I absolutely love that. Are there other things that you would recommend? We just got a couple of minutes left on this episode, but anything else that you would give as advice to people around pipeline?

Gary: Yes, sure.

Gary: It is, and for me, John, we all know the importance of cadence. We all know the importance of managing all the criteria about effectively measuring and managing pipeline. But what I all say to every part I deal with is, listen, when it changes, what’s happening? It’s gone up, it’s gone down. Just let’s keep short accounts with each other. Let’s not save it all up to a week on Wednesday. and we have this laborious plowing through of all this data and we then try and establish useful information from all that stuff. Let’s keep short accounts with each other. So if you’ve had a great meeting and as a result of that, the FDA said, yeah, you are the vendor of choice, we’re gonna be moving forward with you shortly, just let me know how the land lies. And short accounts, critical.

John: Right.

John: Yeah. Yeah. So really just paying attention to pipeline on a really regular cadence, right? Like really, and, and not, and if I’m hearing you right, you’re saying don’t, don’t wait for the next quote-unquote pipeline meeting, right? If the pipeline shifts, let’s let, you know, update me as soon as you can and I’ll do the same with you.

Gary: Yeah.

Gary: Exactly.

Gary: Let me know. Yeah. And it doesn’t need to be even an email. It could be a WhatsApp with a thumbs up or a thumbs down. But just let me know how the land lies because that’s important.

John: Yeah, love that. All right, Gary, well, listen, thank you so much for coming on the Partnership Path in Real Life. It is always a pleasure. I’m already predicting that we’re going to have you come back soon. In fact, I’m going to ask you right now if you’d be willing to come back and talk to us after our next episode on forecasting, because I know that you’ve got some really good stuff there. So I’m hoping you’ll be willing to come back on a future episode.

Gary: My pleasure, John.

John: Excellent. Thanks a lot, Gary.

Gary: You’re welcome. Thank you.